Ive been thinking about these kinds of tests, and i cant help thinking that a big part of the problem is that few men nowadays have really masculine occupations. An example of passing her shit test? Thanksgiving Cooking Week - Day 5 The information in it is for my personal use and documents lineage, longevity, traits, color, size, litters, and health of the Harlequin Great Dane. Queen of Hearts Coll. We have a lot of men working far too hard to impress narcistic bitches… Modern city girls are spoilt fools who dont realise how quickly they would need mens help if.. Israel Led the Way -- Sadly.
However, they are NOT lethal. Many go on to be adopted and live healthy, long lives. The dogs do not understand they are deaf. Only people thinking of them as deaf. Some whites are even used in a breeding programs if the conformation is there. Nearly every litter from every dog has a puppy that did not get the best of the gene pool. Runts, deformities, and many other calamities befall statistically one puppy of every litter ever born.
So should we just stop having dogs as pets? Ryker is a beautiful dog. He surely has an ax to grind somewhere along the lines. Sorry James as in previous post the Harlequin lethal modifier has been found in a number of pastoral breeds. Who did the dirty in your corn flakes? I certainly do not agree the public deserves these mutations in their Pets and it is a lack of breeder education.
The code of silence is corrosive to morality and ethics. The robust health of the parents and the grandparents of your litter will play no role in changing these chances. The blindness, deafness, and brain issues stem from the color gene itself and are unavoidable by other good animal husbandry practices or otherwise robust health of the parents or even the dog itself.
If you find the risk worth the chance you should go into this with full knowledge that you will likely produce one or more of the puppies or burden your bitch with carrying a fetus that will fail at some point in gestation. If you end up with live double merle puppies, you should consider now, during a time of less emotion, what you think the best plan is for them.
Will you be able to put them down at birth and not burden yourself or some future owner with a dog that could have one or more disabilities? Consider my recent post on the Blind Great Dane that has failed to maintain a stable home despite multiple chances. People might think they can raise or keep a disabled dog, but often this ability fades with time and the unpleasant realities and daily needs of the dogs.
Is what you want out of this pairing worth all this mess? Is there not another breeding option that would avoid this problem entirely? Thank you for your comments.
Within dog cultures at large, there is tendency to accept things as banal or even meritorious that are pretty hard to justify. It is simply not acceptable to say that this has been done for years and years, and that one must have done it to be able to say anything. People can do the wrong thing for years and years and gain lots of experience doing that. Zora Will Have the Steak. Or Perhaps the Baby Food. There should be more breeders like you Jess. Or at least, the show folks are so far in the foreground, publicizing themselves, that a lot of layfolks would not even know there were other sorts of breeders; other options.
Some even do the relevant health tests in their breeds. The market for puppies is huge and competition breeders could not hope to fill it. In the end, it comes down to how much research and waiting a buyer is willing to do, and who they are ultimately comfortable buying from. Squatchy Pretends to be a White Dog. I have bred and shown harlequin Danes and mine were at least 5 gen color pure for harl, harl bred black and Boston, now called mantle.
I loved my Boston bitches and never bred my harls to anything else. The harl x mantle cross produced a better ratio of show marked dogs anyway. I so seldom ever saw a merly puppy. And there are different levels of showing — some just do a few local shows, some spend ten grand to send a dog out with a pro handler.
How is breeding Harlequin to Harlequin any different than breeding merle to merle? HxH is breeding MxM. I agree percent. Harl x Harl is worse. If you breed a dog that is a merle to another merle or Harlequin or a Harlequin to a Harlequin or Merle your chances are high you will have one or more pups that will get TWO merle genes which causes the white pups….. This is probably one of the most ridiculous comments on here. Certain color Danes carry different genes.
Same to same always creates problems. I know this because i bred Aussies, and they are the same. I owned fantastic blood lines, but if bred incorrectly, can still potentially produce diseased pups. Oh wait, i did. It is equally ridiculous comment to state it does not matter what is in a Pedigree.
We all here have understood that the coat coat consist of combination of genes. Likewise, a piebald with a double merle and then you add the lethal dominant harlequin gene. Please we are not aware that most Vets study Genetics or reproduction these days. Collies, Border Collies, Aussie, Great Danes we are finding through scientific study the hardlequin dominant lethal modifier is not soley the property of the Great Dane.
Most certainly most of us are fully away that the Aussie did an enormous number of merle to merle breedings with same results. A pedigree such as Avalance for example is not only that he was used for breeding from a sable merle dam whose complaint reports if factual produced colobomas with great regularility.
I do not know what you consider a good pedigree but inbreeding on eye health issues of Champions does not wash in my knowledge of animal husbandry. Indeed there are some very highly educated people on this site in varies areas. The true sign of an educated person…they know that they do not know it all and never will. No one expects their Vet to know all the Genetics of every breed or every genetic disease of specific breeds.
This was one movie that most definite helped a pure breed dog. Trying to solve the breeding issues of my own herding breed the Dane site gave great insight to specifically Blindness.
Example as one studies you learn.. Animal husbandry studies opens one eyes to reality. It is the pattern not the color is what you might have meant to say? Control the pattern and seeminly the Breeder can create and maximize good pigmentation markings.
The white patterning or white spotting in Dogs remains under study. The basic difference visually of the extreme piebald in which spotting is quite different from the lacy spotting of color in harlequin where the base color is white. The harlequin modifier gets rid of the gray pigmentation to white most commonly. We remain with much yet to discover and learn. Over 50 percent white certainly does not compute in my studies be it Herding Breed, Hunting, Terrior ….
The hype is that they magically know how to avoid DM puppies from a spot to spot breeding. This practice is wrong and selfish! All about breeding 1 winning dog and too bad for the other pups that are born to suffer because of it. Of course it is true.
I have a deaf, Blind double Merle. She also has a littler mate that was born deaf as well. Anyone who is involved in Great Dane rescues knows these poor pups are everywhere.
So many top breeders have no care as long as they get a few with the colour they want. We call them greeders. I wonder if the collie people stole the idea of breeding double-merles from the Great Dane people. Avalanches are ultimately a destructive force with very little benefit.
They are beautiful only in so much as you avoid coming into contact with them and you care little for what they destroy. I believe the preferred type of Harlequin Dane in the show ring is a white-mantled one, as well. Yes, they really prefer the Irish white markings socks, tail tip, underbelly, and full neck in white on their mantle and harley dogs.
If you look at the visual standard that the breed club publishes, they like A LOT of white on the neck, all the way up to the jawline. From looking at the other dogs in the top 25 as well as the specials in the final round at the breed club national, I think Fawn is the top show color. There was a whole lineup of fawn dogs and one Harley.
Fawns also dominate the top I wonder why this is. Is Harley a silly party coloring in the view of the fancy? Are Harleys otherwise deficient in conformation?
And most of the puppies in each harlequin litter will be disqualified from the show ring at birth due to their color, leaving the breeder with far fewer potential winning show dogs. What if the puppy with the best conformation in the litter is a boston or a merle? It may be that the desire for the esoteric coloring in mantle and harlequin Danes is because they are so hard to breed. Dogs that are mostly white are not acceptable for boxers, because of deafness issues.
However, you can get flashies by breeding mostly white dogs to solid colored dogs. But there is some evidence that even allowing the extreme white dogs or their genetics in the bloodlines also is associated with deafness and even flashy marked dogs can be deaf or partially deaf. They want a blaze or no blaze. Irish white does not contribute to deafness. Mantles formerly known as Boston-marked have been accepted in the show ring here for some time.
Merles are accepted in parts of Europe including Germany, I believe but not yet in the U. I was shocked to learn there are still a few breeders breeding Great Danes for hog hunting! One wonders why Harlequins are even allowed in Danes. I know in some countries crossing HH or MM is now illegal, but I suspect that one may find that this merely results in false pedigrees rather than actually reducing the problem.
I wonder what came first, the color family rules segregating a landrace, or perhaps the rules simply reflect the breed history and the relatedness outside of the families was limited already. That the pedigree, more so than the resulting dog, has importance. The Collie and The Provost. Harlequin is prenatal fatal lethal in the doubled up state, Merle is sometimes so, sometimes the pups survive. Again, not my original research. Blindness and deafness come with their own challenges in creating a well adapted dog, but I think Chromadane is discussing actual inbred personality changes.
This would not be unprecedented. There are many examples in the literature both scientific and anecdotal regarding a relationship between knocking out pigment and personality disorders in multiple species.
The degree to which melanocyte dysfunction leads to severe disease is obviously variable, but just like all Dalmatians had high uric acid levels but not every single dog was crippled with kidney stones, etc. Merle is a prime example of variable penetrance, variable expression, variable placement, and there are known and unknown genes that modify this. I have another post on Harlequin in the works that details this from scientific studies. Basically the more white genes you combined Irish spotting, Piebald, Harlequin with Merle, the more likely you are to have negative outcomes.
Harlequin plus MM has been shown to have more prenatal fatal results than MM alone. This is not true. Merlequins are double merles and they are not as healthy as the wildtype. Harlequin Danes are not noted for their health and longevity as it is. Jess who comments here can confirm that when she was in Danes, you could not show Mantles in the breed ring.
But this is not at all the point I made in the article. This article is not concerned with the conformation fads of the AKC… if it were, I would criticize their lack of acceptance of Merle.
Chris I think your research is just fine. Lack of pigmentation certainly has to have its affects on every organ of the body due to known biological and molecular evidence. The Harlequin gene now identified being a modifer forming a co-dominant relationship with the merle gene is scientific fact. I cringed to read some collie breeder are waiting for the collie genome mapping. Some actually believe it works different in collies. They also find it unacceptable that a color headed white is actually a double merle, and more likely a double piebald.
Now let us consider the postulation of a double piebald with harlequin. Indeed could not a double piebald modify in a co-dominant fashion as well? Could merle gene have more than this one harlequin Dominant modifier? Now let us consider a double piebald with a double merle.
Mismarks in collies seemingly come likewise from double piebald. Piebald white in mismarks phenotypically expresses in random patterning much as even a single merle gene does not produce a predictable pattern. I think you should quit breeding Danes, your pedigrees are filled with Harlequin x Harlequin breedings! Tell me, what did you do with all those diseased puppies? Do you put them in the freezer?
Take them to the Vet for a shot? Dump them at the shelter? How exactly are you improving the breed by crippling a significant percent of the puppies you produce with congenital disease?
I never said it was. I can read the GDCA page as well as you can. This is, in itself, a rather ridiculous policy. Again with this comment you have not researched genetics enough to even understand why colors are kept seperate.
Maybe you should actually talk to JP chromadane and then you can write a well researched article with accurate facts because it is clear to anyone who actually understands genetics that you either A. This has nothing to due with perfect pedigrees and everything to do with maintaining genetics in coat color.
Producing healthy dogs comes naturally after producing showable ones, in the Grand Order of Dog Breeding Things. Claim you can do Harlequins and still get the other stuff if you will, but as long as you keep trying for that color, you will always be willing to sacrifice just a little bit of something else.
You may think you can have that big career, perfect house, the kids, the dog, but even if you get it and try to hold on, something always suffers. YOU, if nothing else. I find this bizarre.
But why unnecessarily restrict your gene pool? This is the sort of thinking popularized by people who breed in order to show, not who show in order to display their breeding. Even a single copy of Merle has been shown to cause deafness and other problems. Be more careful with language. If thy Collie Eye offends thee. Again, this is not a true statement. There are problems with the study not a huge N, dominated by Catahoulas which can be MM and appear like M, etc.
Deafness prevalence for the dogs was 4. For single merles, 2. Your analysis that deafness is only the result of complete lack of pigment is incorrect. Not only can a single copy of merle produce cells with very little pigment, complete lack of pigment is not required to damage or destroy hearing. Even partial pigment may not be sufficient to supply enough blood to the hearing organs.
The Strain study which I mentioned had 6 Great Danes in it. There was 1 double merle and it was bilaterally deaf. Dunning-Kruger thy name is Terrierman. Research assistant does not seem to get it. Sure, realities of litter outcomes do not always match up to theory but what diff does that make, when in the end, you are talking about taking that RISK? Why even take the RISK? Also love the justification by mentioning breeders not wanting threats to their profit margin.
Not saying no one has the right to have a little money, but never nice to hear that as a bottom line motivator for gambling with innocent lives. Unfortunately what we have here is a failure to do ALL of the research required to understand merle and harlequin genetics.
Reputable breeders breed for the betterment of the breed. They understand pedigrees AND genetics and yes sometimes harl to harl breedings are done. This is because it was the best match and because the breeder knows the genetics of their pedigree.
It is clear that the author does not. There is just a general assumption that any harl to harl breeding is wrong. Did you actually read anything on genetics or learn anything about pedigrees?
Did you contact a canine genetists and gather information from them? There is not as much white factoring in the pedigree as the author would like you to believe. Most all of these are copywrited. Reputation and ethics are two different things.
Out of the 7 breedings on his 3 generation pedigree, 5 of them are Harl x Harl. Now are you going to tell us that no deaf or blind puppies were produced in any of those 5 breedings? I count at least 3 Harl x Harl matings in the pedigree of your Lincoln. Another 4 on the pedigree of Shine. Spirit has 4 Harlequin x Harlequin matings on her short pedigree too. How many puppies had to be put to sleep at birth or farmed out to Dane rescue to produce your show dogs?
Do you know their pedigrees THAT well? Read up on Fair Use. You clearly know less about copyright law than you do about genetics, which is precious little. Well, I have Afghans, and they can get juvenile cataracts. If I bred such a litter, I would be vilified. Even if the bitch and dog were a perfect match, and would produce the Best Puppies Evah!
There is NO excuse for breeding harlequin to harlequin, knowingly creating blind and deaf puppies. Where is the betterment? I guess these pedigrees are all just made up. Why bigfoot cannot be Gigantopithecus. I have been trying to educate myself on proper breeding practices that will produce healthy and show quality pups. I am very new to all this and really just want to find the right way to do things. I recently breed my harliquin male to my female mantle and produced a litter of 9 pups 8 blacks and one Merle.
All pups were healthy and beautiful however there was not one show mark puppy in the litter. I personally did not mind that because all the pups were healthy and went to great homes. However I can see the pressure that show marking can put on some people. I had people laugh and judge my litter as well. It did not hinder my pride in them however I could see how a more sensitive person would feel bad.
Yet I have seen litters that have a sire with all proper harl to mantle and harl to black breedings in their five year pedigree and the female with the same proper pedigree. But the harks from the litter were very heavy marked and there were Bo show marks because of the heavy markings.
In my eyes pups were gorgeous just not show marked. So I can see how one could be pressured to do a harl to harl breeding to try to get that preferred white neck. If heavy marks and spotted necks are the higher percentage produced following Thier preferred breeding standard then why is the more rare clean neck less spotted harl the preferred show mark? It seems a failure destined to push breeders to breed harl to harl. Similar to the modeling industries. The above is just my observation and personal experience so far not a proven scientific fact so please no one rip me apart for my observation.
My question given the above is there a time when harl to harl is a safe breeding? If both harls to be breed have black parents or certain backgrounds is there a possibility of good healthy pups with no risk?
Or is every harl to harl breeding ambad idea in general? I am trying to produce good healthy sound pups so I am trying to learn everything involved in doing so. AKC show color standards is not my main purpose. AKC standards have me questioning alot of things. I have noticed most winning Danes have cropped ears. Seems judges prefer it. If everything is indeed in the best interest of the puppy then why is the natural look not standard or preffered?
So AKC show standards are not my prime goal health is. But back to the question is Thier q way to meet thief standards while following thief guidelines and is there ever a proper time to breed harl to harl.? Judges put up certain markings more than others. Is that superficial as hell?
Welcome to dog showing. The preferred harl pattern is also based on no understanding of how the genetics works, as well. The Evolution of the Teshie Nose. Jess, I totally agree the terminology needs a serious update within the entire canine vocabulary.
If you get two copies of the Merle gene, you have a range of effects from fetal death, normal, blind, deaf, or both blind and deaf. Getting a show marked Harlequin is hard and nothing makes it easier. There are no known living double Harl gene carriers, and living and healthy double merles are very rare as you can read elsewhere on this blog. Ideal show markings also seem to favor dogs that are also piebald.
While Piebald is not a lethal semi-dominant like Harl and Merle, it DOES increase deafness and perhaps eye problems not sure this has been studied well. Throwing it in the mix just makes disability more common. This is up for you to decide on the ethics. There is not really an elaborate knowledge of when this happens, say at the 8 cell stage or when the puppies are more robust and must be reabsorbed by the dam or expelled.
I think you have to ask yourself, is the color pattern worth the risks? The AKC color standards work against the goals of health and they also work against genetic diversity and for many people, they work against ethics and things they are willing to do in their breeding programs knowing what actually happens. A quick google search shows that there is no shortage of blind and deaf Great Danes in rescue, and the breed is not that popular.
I personally think this sort of breeding is unethical and given that I have examined what the breeding ethics are in the show community for my own breed and found them lacking and worth forgetting about, I would certainly not breed within the prescribed color families in Danes if they were my breed. The show people might consider themselves elite and better, but look what they are doing! The emperor has no clothes. Producing good, healthy, sound dogs is a laudable goal, but not always an easy one.
How will you know when you get there? Also be objective not easy when you love your dogs a lot. What is good and bad about your dogs? What do they have to offer? What about them could be improved upon in the next generation?
Keep tabs on the pups from your first litter too — how are they growing and developing? Are they what you want to produce? Danes are a rarity in performance. Born from a harl. She was fixed at a later date of around 9 to 10 months old. She was raised with these 2 other females and was absolutly fine. Looking for answers so i can better this hostile situation. Thankyou for ur knowledge in this matter. There are many anecdotal stories in numerous breeds which link coat color to behavioral traits.
This is also seen in other species, like mice and even humans. Unfortunately I can not point you to robust science done on dogs which would illuminate specific behavioral traits associated with Merle. There are studies which document neurological problems with pigment limiting genes, but finer measurements of personality and temperament are usually not documentable easily.
Many observations about temperament and color might be local in nature or due to ad colors where breeders turn them out regardless of temperament, so there is a strong correlation but not causation between color and behavior.
I have been hearing alot of complaints regarding temperament as the harlequin patterning appears to have gone epidemic viral among numbers of dog breeds? I just read about harlequin min pins? Could this be due to a complex of inbreeding or due to a type of retardation caused by this mixture necessary of two semi lethal genes in combination for phenotype expression? Good day Christopher, I am reaching out to you because I feel you have a lot of knowledge surrounding breeding of Great Danes.
I do not show but am the owner of 2 wonderful Great Danes and love the breed. I have an 8 year old female merle dane that is just wonderful I also have 1 year old piebald female that is also just as wonderful. I have recently been thinking about breeding my piebald when she comes of age but after reading all of these post I am not so sure it is recommended.
I love both of my danes and they both have great personalities and are a true definition of the breed by calling them gentle giants. I do not want to pass on traits that could harm future litters.
Any advise would be very helpful. Like I said before I am not a breeder. My 1 year old just went into heat and I have been going back and forth wither I should get her fixed or not to? Her mother was a harlequin and her father was black. Breeding Merle to Merle is the problem, and you seem to indicate that your Piebald dog also has Merle, so you would be breeding Merle to Merle. If your piebald dog is not also Merle, breeding to a Merle is not particularly dangerous.
This is different with Merle, being double Merle is more likely to lead to serious impairment. So, if you are unsure if your Piebald has Merle too, I would suggest a genetic test to clarify. Regarding temperament, check into the parents and grandparents. You may find that the breeder of your dog was not truthful about the parents or grandparents temperaments.
The temperaments of the parents and grandparents will have FAR more impact on your dog than her color.
First order of business is a complete vet check. Second order of business is a consultation with a behaviorist or trainer who specializes in dogs that are dog aggressive. In the meantime you need to manage your situation so that you do not have a repeat, which usually means keeping your dogs separated. Now with Extra Snark. I agree with Jess if you do not bred for a trait you will lose it. I did find this link that one might find helpful. I found a interesting post that might be helpful?
Tia the pits and parolees chick is full of it and she always has been. I recall seeing her on some day time TV show the host was Charles something, he was Spanish the early-mid 90s spouting ridiculous nonsense, and she continues to do it this day. The fact is, there is a contingent of idiot breeders that are breeding blue pits and some of them cross bred for big bucks, with money and color being the only objective.
A number of these breeders are crossing into American Bulldog, English Bulldog and Cane Corso to increase the size with some of these dogs hitting o lbs and have started calling their dogs American Bullies all the while registering their dogs with fake papers.
Other idiots see the money the morons are raking in and think to get in on the action, so they start breeding a bunch of blue dogs together to get the color and try to sell for the big bucks. Another thing that makes me cringe is when people come to look at a dog to adopt it, and the dog is jumping all over the people like a maniac, and she just LETS the dog.
I know that I would never be able to adopt a dog from her, because the second the dog jumped on me, I would correct the dog, and let it know that jumping on me and in my face is unacceptable. If instead we were discussing OUR offspring would we even consider for a second…. If anyone answered yes that they would risk it? Interesting article and dialogue. Thanks for posting it. We had a merle mantle that boated twice gastic and colon and then died at the age of 5 of a possibly neurological disease that curled his paws in and left him unable to walk and in pain.
She has been a lovely and robust dog, now 5 years old. We are ready to have a puppy and I have a harlequin on hold, mostly black spots but a few merle like patches. She is from a Harly X Blue cross. Is there are any reason to suspect she will be more likely to develop medical problems? She wasthe runt and an omega- supposedly very sweet in disposition- that and longevity is all we care for.
Any advice would be appreciated. You might learn more by referring to this link. A key distinction between the two types of fads lies in the definition of the word. In popular culture, fads are essentially fashions, and fashions can turn on a dime.
In genetic science, fads are a belief system — often very intricate ones — shared by a large number of researchers. Fashionable fads can rapidly shift because they are grounded more in personal preference. Scientific fads are rooted in ideas, expressed in theories, which then must be tested against the evidence. It can take a long time to make the case that turns an old theory toward a new one. Since the Harlequin Great Dane burst into the U. A dozen years ago the heavily marked harlequins were the greatest thing in the show ring and litter box.
In keeping with the stately pace of genetic changes, I am laying out the challenges that have been shimmering at the surface for the last few decades and more recently this past decade. The stride in which new information is being published is at historic speeds. When I started reading the research on genetics years ago I had the leisure of being able to study the text for months.
The language in most cases takes a dictionary and a willingness to learn how genetics, DNA, alleles, loci etc… function. Months soon turned into years and my ability to discern the information has increased to the point that I have started to do some research based on breeding trends I have documented to better my own understanding.
I started a database 7 years ago. The information in it is for my personal use and documents lineage, longevity, traits, color, size, litters, and health of the Harlequin Great Dane.
To my delight it all fit squarely into history and everything else I had read, documented or learned about the harlequin Great Dane. Decade by decade, I can pull all the sources of information from theory to fact and present it on its own merit. Breeding fads of the past still influence what we see today, as will every breeding Dane we use today impact our breed for decades to come.
In this respect we need to realize that each and every one of us have a great responsibility. If we really want to understand the basics of harlequin breeding we must also look for explanations that do not dismiss the near-at-hand.
What we see in the offspring of a particular mating, what ancestors contributed, what colors are used in the assembly of the offspring and without question the historic map of our breed. Looking to the past is the best way we can learn the purpose, the traits, and the breeding philosophy behind their development.
How did we get from there to here? One thing we should be careful of is theories that require the existence of things that cannot be disproved. These theories tend to focus on pushing a particular agenda.
Our merle colored dogs in my opinion fall into this category also. We have yet to really discover their contribution but we are learning much more about the role it plays and why we still get them in our litters after years of trying to extinguish them from existence.
The response to the merle has been a heated one. Breeding one has generated many a hate email and condemnation from the Great Dane Community. Yet, based on recent findings I have to ask the question could we have also eliminated our prized harlequin with our bias of the merle? Just how closely are these two things related? I am not saying go out and breed merles but that we need to have evidence that not breeding them is really in the best interest of the Harlequin Danes future.
Not just in color but also in size, angulations and headgear. The spoken and unspoken rules only serve to box us in to a mindset that might not always be the best we can do as breeders. Many breeders are now scrambling to undo the fads of the last several generations in their breeds. A gorgeous, thin, athletic, feminine hottie was drooling over me the other day, we kept making solid eye contact with one another, then she parked her butt over in a somewhat secluded area, and she waited for me to come over.
When I did not venture over yonder, she shot me a really impatient glare, she was definitely DTF, and I guess she figured I was just the one to plant a stick of dynamite between her legs. I left her dangling in frustration instead.
If only I could have seen what was going on! That was my chance! Oh, when will I ever learn! I am not suggesting that I did not want to tear it up, but other things come into consideration at times. I am somewhat stoic when it comes to the monkey dance, not because I cannot get laid, but because there is an abundance of opportunity. If you were walking through an orchard, and there were spoiled and rotting fruit everywhere, and there were plenty of fruit that were on limbs and within easy reach, you would not walk around pissing and moaning about the fruit you did not taste.
On this , worth reading the following. This shit-testing is only tolerated in the lower and middle classes. Agreed, there are different shit tests applied at different levels of society. Class distinctions often involve overt or covert signaling and non-verbal communication. My last girlfriend was borderline and I researched obsessively to try to understand all the shit that she did and where she was coming from.
I understand now and it doesnt phaze me because I know what she is doing. Looking back at my previous relationships with higher quality women they would never shit test, on the contrary, would just be chill and supportive. I guess if you dont mind shit tests its not that big of a deal, but understand that you dont have to put up with that shit. If you dont feel like it, just next her. Clearly you have had little or no interaction with the upper class or what you have had has been horribly ineffective.
They simply do it in a less obvious and obtrusive manner. They are masters of double meaning, plausible deniability, and crushing others in a polite battle of wits. They also tend towards mastery of social intelligence, covert action, the biting remark that forces you into a lose-lose situation concerning responses.
I love having tests thrown at me, simply out of the entertainment I get from passing or ignoring them. Completely agree with your comments on inner game also. In my beta days a few years back I hated shit tests, I feared them. In fact I almost find an absence of shit test boring.
This is not only great for making friends, but likewise getting laid! Being challenged is an essential part of building strong relationships. The more of an asshole and non-affectionate I am, the more power I seem to be given by these women. My muscular in shape buddy tells me to look at a girl and tells me how hot she is. I laugh with my brother about it because I pull more girls now, then when I was in complete shape and muscular a few years back and beta.
And chicks still want the D because of how I act. I have a distaste for many types of women and decide to use any sexual energy on productive things. I dismiss the undesirables, and focus more on what I want. Opens up time and money for improvement in aspects I see fit, and gives me more power in life than I felt was possible. Being in shape is essential. But it goes to show how powerful this truth is.
Most of the guys I know realise that this is the go-to response to shittests, regardless of if they even know what shittests are in the first place. Disagree and Amplify is usually the wittier option when done correctly, but ignoring their shittests or disregarding them with a simple yes or no usually works better.
Of course agree and amplify is great for girls, which seems to be the main focus of this post in the first place. Just keep in mind the responses are different between men and women as men have inevitably dealt with more shittests than women, making it easier for your answer to be deemed uncreative by them.
It is great for interaction between and among people who are psychologically, emotionally, and developmentally arrested, and for those who like to, or care to engage with them. Scientists state that when people come together for the first time, they are operating at the psychological level of a six year old, and then often times what follows is a phenomenon known as group psychopathology.
She threw me off with how she mangled every social code in the book by being so direct and lunkheaded, and I laughed in her face — and goodnaturedly told her that my girlfriend was at the bar true and that sometimes men talk to women without trying to fuck them true in rare cases.
If she grabs your arm or stops you or calls after you with emotion: Excessively confident, assertive, but indifferent. At which point I will fuck the solid shit out of her.
Very good breakdown and reply. That would especially work on Eastern Europe chicks. I read will fling me into flashback mode.
I guess I needed this, so thank you. When you make the decision to pass a S. I think understanding what shit tests are is important. As far as passing them? And if they say something rude and offensive? We have a lot of men working far too hard to impress narcistic bitches…. Modern city girls are spoilt fools who dont realise how quickly they would need mens help if.. And the men in question cld be fat and insecure, they wld still have skills and strenght that women wld need.
Good article by camille Paglia in the telegraph.. Ive been thinking about these kinds of tests, and i cant help thinking that a big part of the problem is that few men nowadays have really masculine occupations. Eg building a house, fighting off indians, hunting lions, sailing the high seas…. Coupled with this, most women, especially in non rural areas are brainwashed by anti- male feminazism , have unrealistic expectations, are pathologically narcistic and have little or no empathy for the challenges that men face in a fairly fascist PC World.
I really dont think city girls are in any way qualified to test a man in any way… as they themselves are weak willed, unfit , have little honor etc etc. An ex navy seal can throw challenges at me, but he will do so in a constructive way. Spend money on an escort instead of wasting time and money… Build yourself up physically and financially. Then find a country girl with values and moderation.
Although, every once in a while I do like to fill my ego with good game. Makes me feel how I should. Those are the ones who purely fill my need and are discarded immediately like the trash they are. Only women who have strong father figures and avoid the brainwashing of modern day cunts, deserve my time. Surprisingly this article has restored my faith in love.
I agree with your assessment of most women as childish; Mary Wollstonecraft said that in the s and in those days she blamed men for the education or lack of it they provided girls. Today we blame media and so on, and, like you, I blame aggressive feminism and overbearing mothers for the emasculation of men. I wonder if you could help me with a linguistic quest? I have no intention of cheating and have never cheated emotionally or physically.
I was simply excited to connect with someone over Game of Thrones or what have you! This post leaves me thinking there is no point in being friendly to the guys in my office. Witty women are flirtatious, and of course those signals are taken as a form of sexual interest. Sexual tension gets in the way. As a female I agree with his response. Generally, only Beta males with sexual attraction towards you will remain your friend because of the tension otherwise.
My best male friend is a Beta and I love him as a friend. Although I do try on occasion. I got him laid once because I bought him a Trojan condoms shirt and told him that if any girl gave him shit about it to tell her the shirt was completely ironic because he prefers it raw. It worked out for him. Also, I recognize that at a very basic level I enjoy the attention and flattery my Beta friend gives me because of the ego boost. Women also enjoy some ego building, just as you men do.
I think the major flaw with this site is that it posits that women are terrible people when we are not. I never led my friend on, have had the same boyfriend since we met, and was always very direct with him about that. I also will wing woman for him when we go out to increase his perceived value to other women. That being said, if someone is going to be weak male or female they are going to have to become stronger or deal with the repercussions.
I think that point should be more the focus of your site rather than making women the enemy. Doing so is going to create a psychological sexual conflict for your readers. Otherwise, very interesting site! You pity him, but not enough to not leverage his attraction into personal gain. This was a great analysis, kudos to you. I also found myself realizing I subconsciously use these without even realizing, so this made me call myself out on my own bs, which is never a bad thing.
Reading body language is key here. The first can be a legitimate rejection, or the truth. So once again, watch out with this one, not every girl is down to cheat on her man. Also, if said boyfriend actually exists, you could be tangling yourself into a web of bullshit in which a one night stand leaves you with a dude ready to punch you out at any moment. Last thing most girls want from a casual hookup is a crazy bitch chasing her down for ruining her relationship.
Also, morals could stop some girls right there. Depending on the situation judgement call necessary here! Women do this a lot I feel. Reading this makes me never want to have to talk to another person again. While I agree with you about sincerity and kindness, from my experience those that show sincerity and kindness too often get used by pretty women and power hungry men. If you ARE that scared, then you already have been rejected and exiled from the group, or relegated to the bottom position as the emotional punch bag everybody ridicules for cheap laughs.
Refer back to the article and the simplicity of employing yes slash no replies. Or if the composure comes naturally, silence is the proverbial.
Laughing them off with a boisterous manner works for me. The boring,the boorish, the BPDs,the selfish,the vainglorious medical student, the hyper foreign tourists. Failing shit tests literally saved me. For my bibliography, I need to know the real names of every person who contributed to its creation and upload. For example Iam 99 percent with your little monkey brain you are trying trick IM to give his personal information so you can find solid target for your cult feminism to attack.
But 1 percent you are really honest guy. In my teens I actively strove to counter any budding interest I had in them due to my experiences with girls before puberty. All I knew how to do was get into conflicts with them and that society sees to it that there are no winning outcomes for males when they disagree with females. I was not about to let hormones deceive me into thinking that they were suddenly worth the aggravation of dealing with just because they have tits and ass.
So when it came, I retreated into past times like video games and pretty much anything that could make me laugh and left sexuality to the birds and bees. Finding the manosphere recently gave me head knowledge from men who are successful with women and making the comparisons with the experiences of people I know and observed. It seems that the best way to sum up the rules of the game is that women are attracted to men who believe and can visibly demonstrate that he is in fact superior to her and the other men she has potential access to and will use his unshakeable confidence in that fact to lay claim to her.
Which is all well and good for her when she can get the man who does. But all the man got in exchange is someone inferior to him, who constantly creates drama only to see if she can get away with it and will in most cases never outgrow this childish behaviour.
And if that man can make it on his own which he surely can if he is deemed of any value to women , then what tangible worth is she to him really? Late twenties virgin here and I just really want to stick my cock in a pussy to know what it feels like. Otherwise too much hassle. Why would I not be myself and start being a clown to attract holes? Why would I have children in a world where they give all the power to glorified children women. I guess flirting and enjoying feminine energy whatever that is is fun for some men but I highly doubt it is worth it.
I have rarely interacted with individuals I understood on a base level and they were all men. Most of people are busy being sheeps and talking about useless things. Thanks for opening my eyes to shit tests. I was not even aware that they existed until now. Typical beta I suppose. I saw questions only as simple questions, and since I am averse to lying, such questions had to be answered honestly, or at least with the fawning tactfulness that is common to betas.
Even being ribbed by other guys — which you have also defined as shit tests — I found unpleasant. To my mind, it was just low level bullying. The idea that such banter is some kind of initiation is entirely novel. My response was usually to walk away, or give an awkward half smile at receiving an insult, or tell the teacher. As I see now, none of this was a good response. I also found when chatting up women that I completely dried up.
It was a bit rainy today huh? I enjoyed a fair amount of grief in Sixth Form too. College turned out to be much more fun as a result of caring less about making friendships. Banter was an acquired taste for this former bookworm. If I had known people do this type of thing I would have handled the situations I was in with a lot more diplomacy and I would have used my command of the English language to verbally humiliate the people who testing me and put them in their place.
Its great fun when you can beat someone down verbally and generate compliance especially with women. People lie all the time and you have to whip them hard mentally to get needs met lol. There are Much More important things in Life… Like having an ambition, a goal and a drive to achieve! Work on that shit and, the pussy should come to you….
Anyway, the last time a very attractive girl approached me was early this year. A new employee at the time at my work place. Also, I Want to settle down… Eventually… And a woman half my age? Anyway, she started showing me family photos of herself and her family during the first few weeks. She even accompanied me to the train station we took to commute back home I live in London and she in Reading UK … And she also approached me during our lunch breaks to chat etc….
Anyway, suffice to say, she was probably starting to get a little annoyed with me, by not caving into her whims… So that one day, she seriously shit-tested me in the staff kitchen, by challenging my intelligence and my science background! I was livid with rage! Anyway, I played it cool for a couple of months… I was distant, getting on with my shit, took the piss out of her a little from time to time… Nothing serious, just a little reminder that my good will mood had changed.
I also called her a bitch indirectly to another colleague, but she heard me! Getting angry is the same thing as failing their shit tests. Women are essentially full-sized children. They think and act completely on emotions, just like a child. Ever watched a parent ignore a toddler who was misbehaving? Ever watched a parent lose her shit and start screaming and yelling at a toddler who was misbehaving? You lost your frame in that moment you screamed at her. Children are afraid of parents who scream at them too.
I am a single guy, 37 years old who is not married nor has kids. Heck, I have never even asked a girl out before!! Have been since One thing I have found is that I am not a man with a great deal of patience for certain things.
Shit testing is one of them. In my opinion, vagina is simply not worth the pain, stress and duress that one has to go through to get it. The other thing that really astounds me is, many men have patience for the shit testing and allow themselves to be treated as such. I cannot understand that!! Of course, if game and vagina is worth the pain and headaches to get there, then more power to you. For me, I use my time, intellect and game for other endeavors.
I would much rather invest in knowledge of the stock market, guns, hunting, fishing or video games. One can choose their own way and not be conformed to societal norms and pressures. I do not care for nor do I seek female attention or validation. I am my own second best validator. The other validator is Jesus Christ. Personally, I have found Jesus to be the best validator in the universe.
He does not want me to be used and abused in life. He has a plan for my life. A future that is productive, bright and hopeful. For me, there are only three sets of people I seek validation from.
Second is myself and third are my friends and support system. I have figured out how to surround myself with people that positively affirm me for who I am and whose I am. I discard the folks who cannot positively affirm me or cannot accept me for who, whose and what I am. I discard them like so much garbage!!
Humour is way more fun than anger. Besides being angry just validates everything the fem-nazis say about us men any way. Men are agressive, men are violent, men have anger issues etc.
As for the 25yr old shit testing you and your science, laugh and act impressed that she knows such big words, especially with only an arts degree. Or the ever popular, shhhh, grownups are speaking. The last 3 years of my life have been a shit test, that I failed pre red pill. Men Going Their Own Way. It is a phenomenon that has only recently taken off.
What I find both interesting and frustrating is that shit tests are everywhere and non-stop. My wife of 13 years tests boundaries constantly. My boss says shit just to fuck with me. Friends jockey for position with playful put downs.
Any advice on recovering from being a beta? I got really good grades in high school and am pretty good looking. Do you also have advice on how to overcome past abuse and get back in the game. Many fucks are given to those who feign to give zero fucks? But if you really give zero fucks, than youre not given any fucks since youre deemed as having lost this invisible fight?
Dont start what you cant finish, it makes you look short sighted and ill prepared. Conserve your resources and only go nuclear when its truly worth it. End game is everything. Work backwards and your moves will be consistent and natural. Very often, women do not know what they are feeling in the moment. Our emotions can be intense and even conflicting. That creates an inner conflict between what we are experiencing and what we think we should be experiencing. And how can men be both the cause and solution to our problems?
More inner conflict or hamstering, as many would describe it! The shit test is an emotional outburst to gauge if our problem is caused by or can be resolved by the man. What you get to the heart of with your solutions, is not to take the question seriously, you are not taking responsibility in any way the cause or the solution for her inner conflict. They are a result of our culture, the misinformation spread to women and their personal hormonal cocktail.
The real solution, of course is for her to understand her body chemistry better, her moods, her feelings and take personal responsibility for handling them. And to reject the current cultural teachings which tell her that men are the cause of her problems, that tell her to reject her femininity, that tell her that to be strong and that she must always be in control of everything.
An interview is a sh t test Going on a date is a sh t test Talking to people is a sh t test…. Hanging out with your friends and you poke fun at each other…shit test. If anyone has any scientific studies, please let me know. Can I get my ex girlfriend back after I failed her shit test? You clipped your balls off acting like such a weenie loser. You should have told her to go burn in hell. I know Hollywood sells shit movies which depict men as morons and pussies, but do you really have to adopt their philosophy?
But when you gush over her and sacrifice yourself for her, she sees you as an idiot and would sooner have sex with a tree branch than ever look at you again. Write her off in your mind, and develop your own life. Feminazis and psycho bitches are the result of several generations of weak willed men who lived to be white knights and provided their sons with weakling examples so they could grow up to be weaklings.
Fortunately you can deprogram yourself and learn to be a better man. Be strong, forget about that chick, develop your life. Gyna will be there when you become a man. Snap out of it!!! The best way to handle a shit test from a prospective dating women is to just call her out on it and ditch the looser bitch.
Why cant people just be fucking honest. This was a very informative article. I like to be unapproachable so no bitch or nigga can come near me.
The reality is, men ARE good at communicating. Just not telepathically or by some perverse encoded mess using cues, clues, hits and suggestions. Thank You for the eye-opening and informative read! I think as men we tend to shoot ourselves in the foot just to satisfy our cravings for sex. Some think that the hotter the girl is, the the more shit tests she runs because she has so many guys after her that she needs to separate the good ones and filter out the weak men.
In my experience that is not the case, the more fucked up or insecure the girl is, the more tests will come your ways. Good, decent, gorgeous girls from good family and with strong father figure will not test but insted just try to support her man. Basically I would say its good to learn game and aquire experience, but ultimately you dont really want those girls anyways.
You dont really need that, plenty of good pussy out there. Just my two cents. Want to give me something else to think about? A shitty attitude wife or girlfriend will cost you your LIFE.
That guy just chopped off his own balls figuratively speaking and texted them over to his witch of a girlfriend. Is this pertinent to solely the context of defending yourself or can it pertain to other, more general matters, such as justifying a decision? This article is exceptionally well written and thorough. It should really leave the reader thinking — about each and every face to face interaction in daily life: At a minimum, this thinking has me delaying my responses to the more seemingly innocuous interactions.
But stopping to think for a split second has me coming up with a second, better answer. Points in the afterlife? Not everyone shit tests others.
Some are honestly straight-forward and consciously refuse to play such psychological games. This is probably the most beta reaction of all, but reading most of this makes me want to permanently check out of a dating life. The game is never totally over, and in the near future, something could totally compromise your formerly bright future anyway.
This is a game of sex and perceived social value. What if you realize that even the best of alpha male pick up artists will end up old and dying alone because they and all the women they pursued were incapable of real friendship on top of love and lust? I agree on most of it, but it seems like being a man is about avoiding commitment and hooking up with girls..
Lying about having a girlfriend? I go for the easy button — only pick up girls that are several points below your SMV ie. It works for me since I also happen to have a fetish for fat girls. Every other living sentient thing out there is either something to be dominated or fucked, right? And questioning that is heresy. I realized how utterly and inanely stupid this game was when I finally met my spouse who said what she means, appreciated me for who I was, and enjoyed life without constantly playing asinine mental games.
Do you know what I focused on? Investing in a home or stocks. Taking care of relatives. Doing something … meaningful … with my life. This stuff written here?
And to be honest? Life is so much simpler and enjoyable when I got away from nearly all the utter bullshit mentioned above. You know — because the Alpha Male gets the Alpha Female, right? And one day, another Alpha might swing around and take her away from you — because you got off your game. Or you got too old. Or you lost your job. Or you got sick. Or you got hurt at work. Suddenly, your age is showing. Has left you high and dry. Because you shacked up with someone like that.
That was your choice. Because you followed the advice written above. Instead of finding a female … who cared about you. She stayed with you because she was above that. It was about realizing that this is a Long Term trip. Because one day she will get old, ugly, hurt, or sick.
Become something a woman wants. Who other people want to be around. Oh, and remember that we are all going to — one day — become old and decrepit. And that Alpha Male-Beta Male bullshit … is going to really bite you in the ass in the end. Say what you mean. Be respectful, but not a push-over. Be firm; but gentle. Learn how to cook. Mike, your comment raises some good points.
Something to aspire to. Being a good person is also valuable, and you give some examples. Or that shit-testing is a social status setting process. While it sucks, it is unavoidable, as humans are social creatures. Not to mention, that if you want to succeed in life, you are going to have to deal with people, and not all of them are high quality. As you are a former games-player, you seem not to grasp that this article is not about how to live your life, it is about the game of shit-testing.
I just liked the article, and found your comment unhelpful to the process of educating others. However after using Dr. Mack and following the instruction he gave me, I have been seeing significant results with my marriage situation. All thanks to dr. This is all very interesting and there is some truth to it.
Long ago I decided not to play games. We have 3 kids. Also, true alphas are born, not made. Guys, if you are interested enough in this topic to read this web page, you are no alpha. True alphas do not waste their time reading about, writing about, or discussing this. They just do their thing. And beta is just a label. The actually is not bad.
This was a great article. I spent two hours reading it and also the whole comment section. I am a self-actualizing person as in the Maslow theory of needs I crave neither social status, nor do I care for short-term sexual relationships.
I care little for the alphas or the betas or the silly social pecking orders. From the early age, my main goal was to find a soulmate and real love, deep emotional connection with another person and I found one. Just to have sex and getting laid is pointless, it will not fulfill you.